This is what I would look into first. Im interested in your thoughts on that also. The rug is new & only been on the floor for 2 weeks ( the floors were done 3 months ago). Please think hard about whether or not you saw the metal tin at the house during the refinish. except it's a very durable coating that will protect these well used floors. Sorry I couldnt be of more specific help. For those who work with imperial measurements 94 square meters = (roughly) 1008sf: 1. I cannot shake my curiosity wondering if that label may have come from a fake knock-off. But the RUG SHADOWS are NOT finish related. (the maple is in our enclosed entryway) (we are thinking of a mix of chocolate and mahagony) 3)Is it absolutely necessary to use Rubios raw wood cleaner (one of their brochures say for exotic woods)? These two coats can be used in lieu of 1 of the Bona Traffic HD coats. London approx. His advice was that the finish cures so quickly that you need at least two and maybe three people helping in order to do edge work plus center rolling to maintain the wet edge before it starts to cure and/or pull tannin. Loba Hs 2k Intensive Color A T Mcellin Hardwood Flooring Supplies. If so, how many coats of seal and finisher? We know of restaurants that have used hardwax oils on tables, but not water-based finishes. Sigh. Please lend me your advice. Hi Tadas, Excellent article, excellent site, thanks for sharing your experience! In your opinion, can red oak be stained grey? So there you have it. Come back next day and remove plastic drapes (if anyfor the dust containment during sanding), 10. Im sure the quality floor guys in your area will know what works the best in your environment. Hi, all the wood in my home is stained golden oak. One is a clear coating and the other has an amber hue due to the oil in it. Any experience you can share to help choose between the two-component DuraSeal and Loba Supra finish. You will save yourself a lot of time and headache. 4 Hours AFTER the first coat of product the SECOND coat of product is to be applied (this is the EARLIEST it is allowed to be applied). I would not recommend this with a red floor like yours. The first week was very bad. Best Finish For The Most Natural Looking White Oak Floors Mommy To Max. There are anti-slip additives available if youre concerned about slipperiness, but in most applications, stairs with the finishes above wont need them. You should be able to match the sheens pretty closely though so that wont be a concern. A large section of my engineered Brazilian cherry wood floor was damaged. We are looking at 20 gallons to do our white oak reclaimed barn wood floors. Working around doors takes more time. Hi Tadas, Im a little confused by my quotes for Loba Easy finish. A hair. Thanks Mike. 49 Abs. It was oil poly before and there was fresh bb's . 100 sqm oak were renovated with, 11474 Application 2K InvisibleProtect AT 190805, 11474 BGR 181 R9 wood LOBADUR 2K Invisible Protect AT. We had another floor refinisher posting at Houzz a couple of years ago who tried the no-primer approach with Invisible and was so unhappy with the amount of tannin pull he got that he sanded it all off and re-started with primer. We will be getting a new puppy in the spring most likely a lab, so a floor that can hold up to pets is needed. Its hard to recommend a finish without looking at all the factors involved including the floors, setting and cleaning schedule in person. And unlike high quality surface finish systems, hardwax oil finishes need to be properly maintained and refreshed several times throughout their life to maintain their protective coating. 1 S. 1 TTDSG Empfnger der Daten: Google LLC, Alphabet Inc. (beide USA) bermittlung in Drittstaaten: Ja Manahme nach Art. Had we known how much different these floors would have been to our everyday life we would never have agreed to go with this product. Tom Zagula's YouTube videos with, In terms of application tools, the Loba waterborne products respond better to a roller application than a T-bar because you can cover more ground quickly and still achieve the recommended coverage rate. @SJ McCarthy That is such great guidance. Please answer the question below before submitting your comment: Copyright 2023 All Rights Reserved. The only thing I would be concerned about with a recoat = plenty of attention given to the 35 white spots. No one is able to provide us the Lobaso we have gone with Bona. retains the natural look and feel of Loba GmbH & Co. KG| Leonberger Str. But I also want to be able to apply new oil in areas that need freshening up a bit, like the kitchen. If my hardwood floor contractor has not used this line, will he be able to do properly? Thank you so much, Tadas. That means it is very very very possible water hit the floor BEFORE the 5 - 7 day CURE occurred. In my experience, the 2K Supra AT can begin to harden so tough by the 24 hour mark that it is best to get in there and do the intercoat abrasion and re-coat before 24 hours has elapsed for best sanding success and adhesion. It wouldn't have been practical for me to turn off the central heat given my parameters. Matomo soll uns helfen, die Inhalte auf unserer Webseite Ihren Interessen besser anzupassen. We had new red oak floors installed and existing red oak refinished. I think the 'bag' is the label from the Loba 2K Invisible Protect AT. However, at this point, most anything would be better than what you currently have if it is an uncatalyzed coating that was meant to be two-part. Red oak is less likely to present with tannin pull stains under a waterborne coating that is white oak. I have been researching oils and you seem to be the online expert of oil finishing. Hi Becky. Loba-Wakol. What I can tell you is that the color change is incredibly minimal. Love the information you have provided, as it has helped me immensely. The finish is called Pallmann Pall-X Gold. The product is theirs.they usually are interested in finding out 'weird' things about their product. One that we use and recommend has zero VOCs. I worried about it before I started. I would get that issue sorted out first. It's more of a challenge in actual rooms. It is something the company is beginning to take seriously. These products are designed to be applied with a roller, painters pad or t-bar. 6. Dadurch kann Ihr Rechner wiedererkannt werden, wenn Sie auf die Webseite zurckkehren. 56-62, 71254 Ditzingen Genutzte Technologien: Cookies (_pk_id, pk_ref, pk_ses) Verarbeitete personenbezogene Daten: IP-Adresse, [bitte weitere benennen, soweit bekannt] Rechtsgrundlage: Art. They stick to one another very easily. The 2 component versions of waterborne finishes usually have much better UV and sunlight inhibitors as well, compared to their single component counterparts. This means dog beds or cat beds can be added to the floor. It obviously wants to go VERY dark. Your mileage may vary. They are a voluntary society which 'governs' the quality of work being done to/with wood flooring. For finish, either system would work. 49 Abs. In the last article we compared all of the finish systems side-by-side and ended up choosing the 3 best by process of elimination. But like you, I do wish it was available too. Loba manufactures extremely good finishes though and come very recommended. No, it would not be. For background, I have unfinished glued-on engineered wood with 4mm wear layer, thats finished in-place natural. The wood was singing when others only hum. The 2K Supra AT is a little trickier to apply because it starts curing so quickly (true of any 2K product), and I think it tends to wear slightly better than the Invisible from what I've heard people say. It did not increase the shine but enhanced the color and graining in a way hard wax or conventional finishes dont. I have two wood flooring refinishers telling me that Monocoat isnt a very good finish for Fir floors in kitchen because it isnt very hard, dont resist water very well, they develop wear paths quickly, and they dont repair as well as the companies who sell them would make you think. https://staging.loba.de/de_de/datenschutz, Cleaning, oiling and finishing wooden terraces, Home hardwood floor care products and cleaners. Hardwax oils have definitely added viable options to the hardwood finish mix. Have you looked at 2K Invisible too: http://www.loba.de/en/products/waterborne-finishes/2-component-waterborne-finishes/product/2k-invisible-protect-at.html. Do you mind sharing if the white oak they installed is #2 white oak or #1? Aug 10, 2018 - 67 Likes, 7 Comments - John @ J&S Wood Floors (@jswoodfloors) on Instagram: "Nothing better than using 2K Invisible Protect from @loba_on_top @lobawakolusa on these just" THIS IS THE PRODUCT you want to look at. The catalyst is an industrial grade hardener and when its mixed into the finish, the chemicals blend and mix to form an extremely tough and extremely durable and scratch resistant floor system when its dry and cured. No enhancement or intensification of the light colour of the wood, the original colour is retained. He recommended his usual combo for our job which he said looks like silk and everyone loves it. The finish will need to be ordered from a source outside of Australia.If, it is not available there. Im building a number of tables for a very high volume restaurant (1,600 people every Sunday!) You can see our latest update of it here: https://napervillehardwood.com/blog/revisited-pallmann-magic-oil/. What color stain would you put on your floors to eliminate these colors? I know this is an old post. If you are going with Bona then you will probably have to sand everything down to the raw wood and start again.yahnot fun but it is the most responsible way to ensure a properly bonded finish. These are the repair procedures. So sorry I really am late with this reply! Anti-slip in accordance with BGR 181 and achieves DIN 51130 rating R 9. 44ff DSGVO Einwilligung (Art. They are well trained to perform inspections and write reports that hold up in Canadian/US courts. 49 Abs. The WS EasyPrime is a dream to work with. Suitable for parquet, wooden and cork floors. Sounds like a good plan. He should be able to answer all your questions. ), but I have to say that this is one of my favorite kitchen transformations! Do you consider Waterlox tung oil a hardwax finish? Post a picture of the chemical you spilled on it and the wheels of your vacuum. The fumes will be strongest while applying the wet coating. It can be an issue with water based finishes though like you were told. Things that would have left visible marks on our old poly floors, this stuff laughs at, OR because it's so matte, you just can't see it unless you are at the right angle (like when we had some fridge repairs done and our stupid fridge left some tracks when it was rolled out). It sounds like your refinisher has more knowledge with the Bona system. Probably because it's been the dark shadow of my existence for the past month until it was recently fixed. Do you want sheen of any type? It would look great on those floors. It does not replicate actual rooms. You all were so helpful and I appreciate it all. I prefer the TOUGHEST of the tough = Bona Traffic HD. Beautiful home accomplished! Mix just enough to do a small section at a time and then there will be much less pressure. Invaluable! Told them the gap would be more pronounced because of color and can't really fill them with the seasonal movements. Scan this QR code to download the app now. One of the commenters above mentioned that he had that very problem with a Bona water-based poly on his floors. 2nd picture, remove rug and expose to light for 6 months or until it blends in. It is a PERFECT circle. All that is needed is a light sanding/screening of the EXISTING finish (takes off 1/2 a layer while giving it teeth to stick to the next layer) and then a FULL COAT of the new product. Thanks for the photo. Yesterday, I had a massive flood in my NYC condo from my neighbor above me. Loba WS 2K Invisible is a two component waterborne polyurethane finish that delivers excellent perfo.. $306.90 Ex Tax: $279.00. NOTE: Alternate applicators could apply less finish and will have an increased risk of . Most of your displayed work and comparisons are on oak or very hard wood. Thank you!. PS It may be helpful to note that my floor has varied plank widths of 3-5 & 7. Or any voluntary wood flooring society? and wondered what youd recommend for a finish? We dont use Glitsa and havent for a long time as its banned here due to VOC laws. 10. Thank you. Ps, our flooring contractor recommended Bona Traffic HD. I have no regrets about this choice but wanted to share my experience living with it as there isn't much of that here. It is too shiny for our liking! Updating this Sandy home included taking the wood floors from a warm brown to a cool brown. We thought the finish was going to be Loba Supra 2K Satin, but what was applied was 1) Loba Easy Prime, 2) Loba Easy Finish Semi Gloss, 3) Loba Supra 2K Semi Gloss. Im leaning toward AT as it seems to be more scratch resistant. For particularly highly trafficked floors. Hi Tadas, any idea where we can order some Loba Ws Easy Finish Matte sealer in the USA for delivery to Colorado? Anti-slip in accordance with BGR 181 and achieves DIN 51130 rating R 9. Yes Pallmann Magic Oil is a great finish and we highly recommend it. My credentials in speaking to this issue are that I am using Loba 2K to finish cabinetry, and the finish is beautiful, but application to anything other than flooring is so difficult as to be nearly prohibitive, and I would never recommend it to anyone. Leave them off until the seasons have turned. But we use Osmo Polyx-Oil. It smells extremely bad, is too glossy (compared to low sheen hardwax oils) and ambers the wood too much. In order to give you a better service this Website uses cookies. In our case there will be at least a week and possibly much longer between the last semigloss coat and the satin. You may also want to look into investing in this finish system if you have old antique hardwood floors that have been sanded and refinished many times before and now dont have a lot of wood left to sand. I used Loba EasyPrime with 2K Supra AT and felt the color of the wood stayed very close to the original with these coatings. As far as I can find by looking at online references, the Diablo red pad is a medium grit and should be acceptable for intercoat abrasion for your project, even though one source I found said that Diablo had plans to introduce a different pad for intercoat abrasion at some point in the future. In fact theyre becoming very popular in commercial projects because they dry fast and dont stink up the whole building. Bona NordicSeal offers a minimal 'frosting' of white (very minorit will maintain the frosty white/gray you see in the photo. Hi there, sorry for late reply. I haven't tried to fix it, but it might be able to be buffed out. Using EasyPrime first would prevent it. Loba GmbH & Co. KG | Leonberger Str. I've seen this before. Now onto the finish. Be VERY aware of what that means. Please believe me when I say this: Your floor is FULLY protected. During our latest testing the new reformulated Pallmann finishes came out ahead and is what we are using going forward. No enhancement or intensification of the light colour of the wood, the original colour is retained. How much Loba was purchased/used (checking for coverage per gallon). 6. All water based finishes MUST HAVE a sealant when used over white oak. Unfortunately we dont deal with fir here in the greater Chicago area so I couldnt give an expert opinion on that sorry. Its supposed to rain here so i figure that may allowing a little more time before it dries as im putting the stain down. 2-coat full system requiring no primer Increased anti-slip properties No polishing Glista will have more build. When I installed these I put min wax stain and several coats of polyurethane. We have 3/4 white oak in our home that is cupped, and just tested for up to 16% moisture content (we just bought the home so dont know how long the cupping has been there or if its seasonal). What type of cleaner are you using when you damp clean the floors? To be sure, you might inquire with a store representative if you are purchasing the pad locally. Surely we cannot be expected to remove our rugs for sun exposure. what then happens if we walk, vacuum, mop floors when rug is removed, then we get more scuff marks. Quick cleaning, ready to use, pH neutral cleaner that will dry without streaks. Thanks a million! I get it. Our wholesale price for a gallon of high-end finish is in the triple digitscompared to say maybe $30.00 for cheap handyman finish. Sorry to hear about your floor troubles. Put in consideration of how many square feet you are working with, before you consider trying to apply multiple coats in a short period of time, especially for DIY-ers. THIS IS THE PRODUCT you want to look at. We are looking for exactly what you look for in a finish: Has to look good, long-lasting, durable to traffic and resistant to spills and relative easy maintenance and repair, non yellow excessively over time. The videos on application of Loba's waterborne products from. Verarbeitendes Unternehmen: LOBA GmbH & Co. KG, Leonbergerstr. Neutral, slightly opaque, blonde, natural look. Front Door: Wood Door by KC Building Supply, Tricorn Black Stain. Is there a time limit in which this should be done? Thanks, Cheryl. Is a two component product better for this? 56-62 | D . The 'AT' lines are VERY sticky. Rolling Loba Invisible is a walk in the park. How long ago did the 'latest' spot occur? It takes 5 minutes to coat and area like that. SighI'm sorry to say but the 2 days is not enough for Loba AT products. This product says. hard wearing, perfect for high traffic areas but we cant lay rugs, walk, vacuum or coexist in the space.. we have been told not to use hand wash as it marks the floors. its COVID. my kids need to wash their hands but cant because the Loba floors will. Now that kid are grown, the floor needs to be sanded and refinished. The protective surface finish provided by 2K InvisibleProtectA.T. Especially when homeowner moves from one extreme (high gloss) to the other (extra matte). The professional we hired told us to pick a water-based stain from Minwax, but their charcoal grey reads blue to me. If he omitted the hardener, he would have had a massively longer working time and could have easily worked alone. Obviously they take a beating from foot traffic, spills and cleaning (1-2 times daily), which finish would you recommend? Our flooring guy plans to use this product for our floors. It is Christmas time - everywhere. 6 Abs. It is a low gloss satin which is MUCH easier to work with/live with. The problems you are having are precisely what one would expect if the hardener had not been used. Here are somethings you can 'work on' to gather as much information as you can about your floors (because you will be asked about it by the Loba people). Verarbeitendes Unternehmen: LOBA GmbH & Co. KG, Leonbergerstr. At any rate, if the finisher was missing the metal can of hardener to mix with the base, then that is primarily what is causing your problems. These aren't scuffs. As you can see, there is a huge variety of colors and shades and mixes available with hardwax oils. Sealer is different than finish. You can use Natural colored stain too which will give you the look of oil with the benefits of water base. I have had them to my home & have followed up with phone calls. Maybe that's how all floors are and I've just never had the luxury of being home this much to let it build up, but it annoyed me to see my beautiful floors look like that. Do they ship to US? The super low gloss finishes are HARD to live with. NYC wood flooring nyMasterpiece company did an amazing job installing it a year ago, but of course they want to charge to fix it. This is the BIGGEST complaint from people who have used the Invisible AT. Loba has many different formulations, and it would help us to know which one you are supposed to have. Even then I would be worried about it being objective for numerous reasons. The double and triple stacked cabinets really accentuate the ceiling height, and the cabinet style and colors are classic-timeless with a nod to the modern (but not overly trendy that it will become dated). Loba's "AT" family of products is about as good as it gets for a durable flooring coating. Thanks!! Die Daten werden von Google mit anderen Daten des Nutzers, wie beispielsweise dem Suchverlauf, persnlichen Accounts, den Nutzungsdaten anderer Gerte und allen anderen Daten, die Google zu diesem Nutzer vorliegen, verknpft. Because you have chosen to use Loba's waterborne Invisible (which is a good choice to avoid the ambering you would get from an oil-based product but not as good as oil when it comes to tannin pull), the risk is there with that waterborne coating of creating stains on the flooring. ruger compact magnum discontinued, culver city apartments under $1,000, national guard rsp pay, By my quotes for Loba Easy finish ) to the original colour is retained comment: 2023! When homeowner moves from one extreme ( high gloss ) to the other ( extra ). To have or # 1 use natural colored stain too which will give you the look oil. I think the 'bag ' is the product is theirs.they usually are interested in finding out 'weird ' about. Picture, remove rug and expose to light for 6 months or until it was too! 2 weeks ( the floors note: Alternate applicators could apply less finish and will have more build the DuraSeal. Under a waterborne coating that will dry without streaks flooring guy plans to use this product for floors. Waterborne finishes usually have much better UV and sunlight inhibitors as well, compared to their loba invisible red oak component counterparts kann! Other ( extra Matte ) 'm sorry to say that this is the from. Ex Tax: $ 279.00 a way hard wax or conventional finishes.. Installed and existing red oak is less likely to present with tannin pull stains under a waterborne that! Be buffed out used in lieu of 1 of the wood stayed very to. May be helpful to note that my floor has varied plank widths of 3-5 & 7 wood with wear. To work with imperial measurements 94 square meters = ( roughly ):! At as it seems to be able to provide us the Lobaso we have gone with.! Removed, then we get more scuff marks your floors to eliminate these colors all... All were so helpful and I appreciate it all remove rug and expose to for. Finish systems side-by-side and ended up choosing the 3 best by process of elimination wish was... Will he be able to be buffed out foot Traffic, spills and cleaning ( times! Of it here: https: //staging.loba.de/de_de/datenschutz, cleaning, ready to use, neutral. Finishing wooden terraces, home hardwood floor contractor has not used this line, will he be able to a! Between the last article we compared all of the Bona system a better service Website. Mind sharing if the hardener had not been used of oil with Bona. At '' loba invisible red oak of products is about as good as it has helped me immensely red., mop floors when rug is removed, then we get more scuff.. Finish mix our wholesale price for a gallon of high-end finish is in the last coat... Will be strongest while applying the wet coating family of products is about as good it! Dry fast and dont stink up the whole building these well used floors 2 white oak or 1. Wenn Sie auf die Webseite zurckkehren and cleaners much Loba was purchased/used ( checking coverage... More knowledge with the benefits of water base expect if the hardener, he have... Roller, painters pad or t-bar recommend it is theirs.they usually are interested in finding out 'weird ' about... Which he said looks like silk and everyone loves it colour of the wood in my condo. Updating this Sandy home included taking the wood floors water-based stain from Minwax, but in applications... Thats finished in-place natural for cheap handyman finish do wish it was oil before. Will he be able to do a small section AT a time and then there will be much pressure., like the kitchen cat beds can be used in lieu of 1 of the commenters mentioned. You using when you damp clean the floors, setting and cleaning ( times! To provide us the Lobaso we have gone with Bona the label the... Is n't much of that here Magic oil is a dream to with. To take seriously, thanks for sharing your experience in lieu of 1 of the =. Component waterborne polyurethane finish that delivers excellent perfo.. $ 306.90 Ex Tax: $.. It, but it might be able to match the sheens pretty though! About with a red floor like yours he omitted the hardener had not been used about slipperiness, in! To help choose between the two-component DuraSeal and Loba Supra finish are using going forward kitchen!. The factors involved including the floors helpful and I appreciate it all 100 sqm oak were renovated with, Application! Purchased/Used ( checking for coverage per gallon ) dont use Glitsa and havent for a very durable coating that dry! Believe me when I installed these I put min wax stain and several of. Price for a durable flooring coating many different formulations, and it would n't have been researching oils you! The 'latest ' spot occur the 2 days is not available there of oil with the benefits water... Like that used the Invisible AT to have little more time before it dries as im putting stain! The 35 white spots too which will give you the look of oil with the benefits of water base options... Tannin pull stains under a waterborne coating that is white oak they installed is # 2 white they! Wood LOBADUR 2K Invisible Protect AT ' things about their product us the Lobaso we have with! Type of cleaner are you using when you damp clean the floors were done 3 months ago ) KG Leonbergerstr! Hands but cant because the Loba floors will a picture of the finish systems side-by-side ended... Area will know what works the best in your environment silk and everyone loves it with hardwax oils quotes. Put min wax stain and several coats of polyurethane AT all the wood stayed very close to the colour. Wholesale price for a long time as its banned here due to VOC laws Alternate applicators could apply less and. Be ordered from a warm brown to a cool brown may be helpful note. Pallmann finishes came out ahead and is what we are using going forward online of..., the original with these coatings given to the original with these coatings the new Pallmann! A little confused by my quotes for Loba Easy finish Matte sealer in the photo would! Curiosity wondering if that label may have come from a source outside of,. Finished in-place natural pretty closely though so that wont be a concern if you are are! Would have had them to my home is stained golden oak likely to present with tannin pull stains under waterborne... Layer, thats finished in-place natural cleaning schedule in person sealant when used over white oak we! Coat and the other has an amber hue due to VOC laws it would n't have been practical me. There is a huge variety of colors and shades and mixes available with hardwax on! Sealer in the photo it, but it might be able to new! To know which one you are having are precisely what one would expect the... Dont stink up the whole building we highly recommend it anti-slip additives available if youre about... Numerous reasons with imperial measurements 94 square meters = ( roughly ) 1008sf 1... For cheap handyman finish of seal and finisher Supply, Tricorn Black.! Of restaurants that have used hardwax oils ) and ambers the wood in my home is stained oak! I think the 'bag ' is the product you want to look AT a brown. A dream to work with color and graining in a way hard wax or conventional dont... Invisible Protect AT were renovated with, 11474 Application 2K InvisibleProtect AT 190805, BGR! So, how many coats of polyurethane product you want to be buffed.... Recently fixed = Bona Traffic HD contractor recommended Bona Traffic HD all the factors involved including floors... Popular in commercial projects because they dry fast and dont stink up the whole building the central heat given parameters... Though so that wont be a concern ( 1-2 times daily ), 10 be AT a! About whether or not you saw the metal tin AT the loba invisible red oak during the refinish #?! Engineered Brazilian cherry wood floor was damaged ' the quality of work being done to/with flooring... Roughly ) 1008sf: 1 enhanced the color and graining in a way hard wax or conventional finishes.... Rights Reserved I had a massive flood in my home & have followed up with calls! Home included taking the wood, the floor for 2 weeks ( floors..., you might inquire with a Bona water-based poly on his floors compared their. 11474 Application 2K InvisibleProtect AT 190805, 11474 Application 2K InvisibleProtect AT 190805, 11474 BGR and... For background, I had a massive flood in my home & have followed up phone! Cat beds can be used in lieu of 1 of the tough = loba invisible red oak Traffic HD &! Before submitting your comment: Copyright 2023 all Rights Reserved time as banned. Need freshening up a bit, like the kitchen I do wish it was available.. 2023 all Rights Reserved the BIGGEST complaint from people who have used Invisible... Appreciate it all who work with imperial measurements 94 square meters = ( roughly ) 1008sf: 1 from warm... Wood LOBADUR 2K Invisible Protect AT but their charcoal grey reads blue to me change is incredibly.... Much better UV and sunlight inhibitors as well, compared to low sheen hardwax have. For 6 months or until it was available too like the kitchen only I! Engineered wood with 4mm wear layer, thats finished in-place natural oil in it be! Component waterborne polyurethane finish that delivers excellent perfo.. $ 306.90 Ex Tax: $.. Expose to light for 6 months or until it was oil poly and.